GM Pays More Tax to China than US

I guess we shouldn't be surprised. Just another example of what's wrong in the US.

Quote :

A dive into GM’s filings with the Securities & Exchange Commission reveals that while the carmaker makes nearly all of its profits in the U.S., it pays virtually no U.S. federal, state or local taxes. The carmaker paid just $5 million in federal taxes last year, its SEC filings show. For its total federal, state and local bill, all in, it booked zero taxes, the filings show. Meantime, in 2015, GM paid more than $908 million in taxes to China, due to its profits from its joint ventures there, the filings show

http://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/2016/03/31/wheres-presidential-debate-on-gms-crony-capitalism.html

GM...Building China's Pacific Fleet.

Meanwhile.....Detroit. Flint.

General Motors is just another corporation looking to make a buck. They are only loyal to the mighty dollar. China is the biggest market in the world. GM will do whatever it takes to maintain a strong foothold there.

Government Motors of China?

First they export jobs and taxes and eventually they'll export the entire company. Of course somehow GM's leadership positions will remain intact here and they will be paid handsomely.

Diseasel wrote:

I guess we shouldn't be surprised. Just another example of what's wrong in the US.

I'm not surprised at all (I expected it) and the blame for this goes straight to the Obama regime- Government Motors was allowed to keep tax loss carry forwards from the old GM despite its bankruptcy. Normally in a bankruptcy tax loss carry forwards are lost, part of the price for having the company's debts discharged. From 2010 (emphasis mine)....

GM Carry-Forwards Worth $45b Off Future Tax Bills

Perhaps one of the least-covered elements of the auto industry restructuring has been the numerous tax advantages GM has earned as a government-owned automaker. Unlike most bankruptcies, GM was allowed to hold onto some $16b of net operating loss credits (tax-loss carry-forwards), which can be used to offset future tax bills. Typically, companies that restructure in bankruptcy lose existing carry-forwards as the price of wiping out debt, but because the government is invested in GM, it decided to allow old tax losses to flow into the new company even as debt was left behind. In the latest update on this story, The Wall Street Journal notes that some $18.9b of GM’s carry-forwards were from the old company, and that the firm has a whopping $45.4b in future tax savings. And because carry-forwards can be banked up to 20 years before they are spent, GM will have to make massive profits before it starts actually paying taxes to the federal government. The government’s position:

the profit-shielding tax credit makes the bailed-out companies more attractive to investors, and that the value of the benefit is greater than the lost tax payments, especially since the tax payments would not exist if the companies fail

Which is all well and good, but the reality is also that this practically doubles the taxpayers’ cost of bailing out GM. As a policy this makes sense for the reasons given (assuming the bailout was a foregone conclusion), but it would be nice if this “hidden charge” were at least noted on the bill.


http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2010/11/gm-carry-forwards-worth-45b-off-future-tax-bills/

It's long been said companies don't pay taxes people do.  It's naive to think that a company simply absorbs the tax and doesn't pass the tax burden onto consumers.  Same thing has been done to employees.  Employers no longer pay pensions, they no longer pay for heathcare.  Employees do.  We still think companies pay taxes if and when they actually do write a check to the US Treasury?  That's the shell game of the US government in cahoots with corporate America.  Then on top of that the government loans, grants, or provides subsidies to companies.  The Export-Import bank, direct industry subsidies, loans to industry, agriculture, energy, manufacturing.  As much as people can try to pick one microcosm and beat their chest for one political club or the other, both of which are corrupt to the moon and back, this is kind of mind control the elite who make the real decisions like to keep the people mired in the quagmire.  

The naivety continues when it's claimed that GM owes X amount, or now in an article that amount cost to the tax payer is now doubled.  Forgoing that there would have been a $0 dollar US tax payer expense for the collapse of the US auto industry.  There's no free cake.  

Thanks goes to the US government over and over.  How about $2 billion provided to Toyota in Cash for Clunkers.  Nothing sounds like using tax money wisely like giving US tax dollars to foreign companies.  That's just the start.  We give tens of billions in aid to countries around the world where people want to kill all of us.  What a bonus. In the dark of night during the collapse the Fed gave out billions to Toyota, BMW. Ford got $15.9 billion in total. All done behind closed doors with the REAL people and decision makers who OWN this country.

We whine and complain the company pays next to no taxes. Was it the company that made the rules? No it's government. How many US tax payers pay more taxes than required because their tax burden is too low? When W made the largest tax cut in US history, I'm sure all of us here keep paying the higher rate because it was going to drive up debt and put an additional load on the US tax payer right? Who made these rules? Government.

There's 14 million other ways the people have been screwed and raped over.

Suddenly if GM pays all the tax, it fixes everything.  No.  The result it fixes nothing.  

No one likes government picking winners and losers, but that's the only thing our government has been doing for 30+ years.  Mostly wars, but sometimes we get cars/truck and some pretty good ones.  The one's that everyone here is driving, not a single manufacturer operates without some government assistance, that's the real world.  We may not like it, but that's the reality.  There's not a single US vehicle manufacturer that doesn't us US tax payer benefit as a daily business tool.  None of them are virgin.  In comparison, 60% of the entire Japanese economy is rigged by the government for auto export, at the peril of everything else including their domestic economy.  

If somehow government is responsible for the 2017 Camaro ZL1 640HP/640TQ w/10 speed auto. That should be government success story of the decade. But no the major accomplishments are Libya were "no American's died". Healthcare for everyone with a tax and cost of service that is insane. And our immigration policy where we have no borders, don't send anyone out, and invite terrorists in to kill us all. Now the next accomplishment will be when they set-off an WMD in a major city, now which city is where the bets are being placed. GM now pay your taxes, more than the government by law has mandated you pay. Bad GM.

Companies don't pay taxes, people do.

"It's a big club, and you ain't in it!"

Americans are basically paying money to China with GM being the middle man.

Should have let GM go fully bankrupt and capitalism and free market do its work.

That would have meant the US auto industry no longer existed.  And would be the end of manufacturing in the US.  True capitalism hasn't existed within the US for decades.

Who would have come in and picked up the GM assets?

What we have now is "Capitalism Gone Wild" mixed with "Fascism"

The MONTHLY US trade deficit with China averages $35 billion to $50 billion, month after month.

GM writing a one time check to US Treasury for $100 billion fixes nothing.

The auto industry would have survived, it would just be a lot leaner than it is now because the waste would have been gotten rid of. Very similar to the oil industry shedding its waste and over-indebtedness now. The fall in price will eventually be a good thing for the industry. Wells drilled in 2015 are already twice as productive as those drilled in 2013 because of the need to make them more efficient and productive.

Saving the dumb and greedy of lets them multiply.

Is FMC paying taxes on profits? If so GM getting a free ride is a big deal. Ford got a grant to help with costs of high mileage vehicles, as did many other mfrs, but got loans which they are paying back for operational expenses. GM paid back not 1 penny on the 10s of billions in stock the govt bought, and sold at a loss. As Heath? said, if GM and Chrysler had been allowed to file bankruptcy the auto industry would have survived, but the UAW would not have. Priorities seem misplaced somehow.

Companies come and go, unless they somehow are "too big to fail"...that's a modern invention that comes straight from the people who own the government.

GM may not pay taxes, but they bought and paid for a huge chunk of politicians. And that investment paid off.

Just like it will in China...taxes over there are a farce. They go to the power brokers just like ours do.

GM is paying off favors there. Just like they have here for years.


And if GM could, they'd take their entire operation off shore and ship slaves in to work for them....

That's a good point about GM getting those offsets. I forgot about that. I saw an article that said GM might not need to pay US taxes for the next 20 years.

In spite of that somehow GM's debt/shareholder value has climbed up to almost 110%. Ford's is 464% but they didn't enjoy a US bailout. As a comparison, Toyota's is 60%.

Even with all those benefits, GM's stock price remains below the IPO price from 5 years ago.

pup wrote:

GM is paying off favors there. Just like they have here for years.

And if GM could, they'd take their entire operation off shore and ship slaves in to work for them....

As if the other companies are somehow different and don't participate like GM. GM is unique. Not.

Truth wrote:

Is FMC paying taxes on profits? If so GM getting a free ride is a big deal.

GM didn't create the rules. The government did, multiple agencies, all branches. Just like the people in the US that "don't pay taxes" people didn't create the rules. Government sure did.

We act that as if it's cut and dry. It's not.

No one ever considers what having 500+ thousand out of work. Unemployment benefits. PBGC would be asking for a handout when funds weren't sufficient, there would have been more money here too. Where does that money come from? US tax payer. What would the occur to federal tax revenue when 500k+ and 1 million or so indirect are no longer contributing employement taxes. The issue was dire, you've got people working in IT firms, transportation, trains foreman, trucks, materials, gone gone gone. Now 7 years later. Are we better off that GM, Chrysler, and Ford are still here paying company portions of FICA and SS, Medicare for each employee every paycheck? Is it a benefit that these 1.5 million are paying FICA, SS, Medicare. GM's bankruptcy tax free ride won't last forever.

Our country has problems, major problems. Mention GM and everyone has the opinion that's been well shaped by the media that told you what to think and pay attention to. Good obedient citizens voters. Government ready to steal your votes now too.

The country could take every bit of revenue from all domestic auto manufacturing, nationalize it, and it wouldn't change a single thing with the course our country is on.

We have a spending problem, a tax revenue problem, and a growth problem. To change the course dire correction in all three would need to be made. Doing one without the others in full, won't correct anything.

But please continue harping on anything of America remotely does right, even though the situation tastes bad. As we've already seen half the nail in in the us domestic auto industry coffin. Keep on hammering.

Maybe when the only choices are Toyota and Kia, we'll be much better off. Congratulations America.

Diseasel wrote:

In spite of that somehow GM's debt/shareholder value has climbed up to almost 110%. Ford's is 464% but they didn't enjoy a US bailout. As a comparison, Toyota's is 60%.

http://jalopnik.com/5704575/ford-bmw-toyota-took-secret-government-money

This was a secret bail, keep the ships upright, thanks to the Fed. Didn't have to go to Congress for these lifelines. Every ship needed bailing, some of them got more discretion than others.

Truth wrote:

GM paid back not 1 penny on the 10s of billions in stock the govt bought, and sold at a loss.

GM paid back all of the loans.  Government sold the stock at a loss.  That was a government decision. Why didn't the government sell when GM traded above $38 and near $41?  That would have been a nice profit.  Government being government.  When is the last time government ever made a good decision?  Never.

I consider a bail out the 50 billion given to GM that they did not repay, not 15 billion loaned to FMCC directly by the federal reserve bank, which they did repay. At the time of the bail out the US auto industry's share of the total industrial output was around 3.6%. It is widely believed that had GM and Chrysler actually gone bankrupt, other auto makers would have absorbed market share. Why didn't the loss of PanAm and TWA ruin the airline industry?

joemac wrote:

 When is the last time government ever made a good decision?  Never.

Including when they got into the car business, and Wall Street business. They picked winners based upon past donations alone.
Period.

It had nothing to do with saving some schmucks middle class job. It had everything to do with ensuring their donation revenue stream remained.

And that's the crux, no matter which way the domino falls, all of us are left with the aftermath, picking up the pieces and trying to survive on what's left behind.  We ourselves are at fault for not giving a rats, absorbing the forced narrative of opinion, all the while it destroys the middle class.  

Instead we tote the government line, the media line, when it fits into the left or right bucket.  All the while the very fabric of our livelihood is being dismantled.

Even long before '08 people ignored our auto industry.  To it's peril in '08.  While the Japanese central bank secured profit for it's export market, the US did nothing, too many wars to fight.  The US auto industry was a step child, and it showed.  When the Japanese carried a built in currency subsidy of $2k to $15k per vehicle.  The US government and people knew of none of it, couldn't give a rats, willfully bliss.  Thus it all cratered in '08.  Now they care about it, because they were told so my their masters who own them.  The mentally enslaved.  If people ever had an original thought it would blow their mind.

Even in '08 GM could have gone through bankruptcy.  Though with wall streets catastrophe there was no investment grade financing available.  That's where government stepped in.

During Reagan's administration there was a 45% tariff passed on imported motorcycles, this was mostly aimed at saving the last one we had standing Harley Davidson.  Never hear anyone mention Harley in negative light for propping up their business to fend off the currency assault from Japan.  Most won't have any recollection it occurred.  Now we've got people busting out of their double wides that don't have a pot to piss in screaming that we can't place tariffs on foreign countries.  Willfully ignorant.  They have no idea why they state such, other than they've been programmed to perceive it a certain way.

Trump seems he's the only one talking Tariffs and he's got the entire establishment from both sides firmly against him.

Everyone else is talking importing more 3rd worlders and exporting what jobs are left.

Except Bernie, he has a magic tree that's going to pay for everything.

Add that Ted seems to have a night life that's rather eventful. He and Bill should tag team.